Former governor of Oyo State and gubernatorial candidate of the Accord Party (AP) during the 2015 general elections in the state, Senator Rashidi Ladoja, interacted with journalists at his Bodija residence in Ibadan recently. He fielded questions on sundry issues including his relationship with former president Olusegun Obasanjo, his petition against Governor Abiola Ajimobi, oil subsidy removal, and reasons governors should maintain the status quo on minimum wage and salary cut for workers with higher wages as well as other national and political issues. OLUSEYE OJO reports:
Obasanjo as the greatest living Nigerian
There is no doubt about the fact that former President, Chief Olusegun Obasanjo, is one of the greatest leaders we have ever produced in Nigeria. when you look at it, people forget that it is true that some people are born great, some people acquire greatness, some have greatness thrust on them. So, which one would you say Obasanjo falls into?
I think it was forced upon him. God doesn’t make mistakes. Look at how many people have sought to become the President of Nigeria among the Yorubas. Our revered Baba, Chief Obafemi Awolowo, tried, he did not get it. Chief MKO Abiola nearly got it. But Obasanjo became Head of State reluctantly in 1976. Chief Olu Falae equally tried.
But Obasanjo cannot be said to be the most righteous person. In fact, they told him before (he became president) that he could not become a deacon in the Baptist Church because of many vices he was said to have perpetrated. Yet, God said this is the person that is going to be your leader.
So, whether we like it or not – luckily Yoruba respect two things, age and position. So far in Nigeria, nobody has attained the height of ruling Nigeria for almost 12 years like Obasanjo. There must be something good in him.
Since he became Head of State in 1976, he has always has a hand in who becomes the president of Nigeria. It was said he has a hand in how Alhaji Shehu Shagari became the president of Nigeria in 1979. After Shagari, the next one we had was when he became president in 1999.
Look at this paradox, Obasanjo became president 20 years after he was said to have had a hand in how Shagari became president. He also has hand in how the late Alhaji Umar Yar’Adua became president in 2007. He also has hand in how Goodluck Jonathan became president and he has hand in how Muhammadu Buhari became president.
Tell me if there is any Nigerian that can be said to be greater than that. Obasanjo’s voice in Africa today is about number one. When he talks, everybody knows that Obasanjo has talked. We should not minimise the fact that God decides what he wants to do. I am not a pastor, but I believe that God has a hand in everything is happening in Nigeria, and even everything that is happening in the world.
If he calls the United States President, Barack Obama, he doesn’t need to say who is Obasanjo? The world leaders know him. The Secretary General of United Nations, Ban ki Moon, knows him. He may not be the most righteous but he has been the one that has been so favoured. Buhari became President, essentially because of the vote of the North. Obasanjo became president, not because of the votes of the West, it was note the vote of his own people.
So, me and my brothers (Obasanjo) are not good friends o. We cannot sit down together for one hour without fighting. But it cannot be denied that so far he is the biggest Nigerian and as today, the greatest African after Nelson Mandela, who is no more. Whether the Yoruba accepts him as leader or not, huh? Recently, he told me that he is not the leader of the Yorubas, but of Nigeria.
But many people still believe that Obasanjo has caused many problems for Nigeria instead of solving the problems of the country. What is your take on this?
I am not saying he has not caused problems for the country, but so far living Nigerian has matched his records, whether it was bestowed on him or he earned it.
If after you have come back from the Supreme Court, do you intend to contest for the governorship seat again?
It is not for me to decide whether I will contest again or not. The decision lies with my party. If the party says I should contest because there is no other person that can contest again, they cannot force me. If I want to contest, and the party says I should not, I cannot force them either.
The ruling APC in the state has said, you would lose your petition up to the Supreme Court level and thereafter, you would be sent to political oblivion. What is your reaction to this sir?
You don’t go to war and say you want to lose the war; you go to war with determination to win. Playing to the gallery is also part of it. You are fighting your opponent, either your opponent refused to be threatened or not. You just ignore whatever they say because there is no truth in it.
Am I in oblivion yet? No, I am not. Or is it the association of Alao-Akala and Ajimobi that will send me to oblivion? No, it cannot. Even the party that many people think it’s unbeatable, the PDP, which said it would rule Nigeria for 60 years, it actually ruled for 16 years, instead of 60 years. Therefore, you cannot say au revoir yet. It is too early to say they would send me to political oblivion.
Definitely, at a certain time, I will have to retire from active politics when I become Olubadan of Ibadanland. When I become Olubadan of Ibadan, at that time, can I still play active politics? But today I am not yet Olubadan, and it is not sure that I will become Olubadan. I only pray that I will become Olubadan. How many people that start the journey eventually become Olubadan? May be I should become emeritus politician to train new comers.
There is an insinuation that you knew you would not win your petition against Governor Ajimobi before the tribunal, the Court of Appeal, and the Supreme Court, you only filed the petition to retain your followership. How true is this sir?
It is not true. I don’t believe in throwing away good money. If I knew I would not win, I would not have put in one kobo. We put in a lot effort and money. Election petition is different from other issues because when lawyers are doing it, they cannot do any other thing.
Collecting evidence is not a joke; it takes efforts and money. Maybe that is what they tell their own supporters.
Do you see jubilation in town on the day the Appeal Court delivered judgment? It means the people are still saying ‘we did not vote for you.’ I gave myself 99 per cent of winning at the tribunal and the Court of Appeal.
You and Governor Abiola Ajimobi are cousins, but politics seems to have made the two of you fallen apart…
(Cuts in) That is not true.
Do you still meet at family meetings or relate well?
We have not been having family meeting for a long time, why should we start one now? He is free to come to my house. I am the elder one, and he has always been the one coming after me. If he wants to come, he can still come. I will welcome him.
At the funeral programme for the late Otun Olubadan of Ibadanland, Chief Omowale Kuye, recently, Ajimobi said there is no problem between us and that is true. He said the supporters are the ones causing problems; that he is not the one and that is true. I have no problem with him.
But I said I won the election, it is my right to feel so. There is room for redress and I am seeking that redress. What is wrong in that one? Even, if we are blood brothers, there is nothing stopping anything. Most of the time, we are so emotional about things. It has nothing to do with our emotion.
If we are going to the Supreme Court, it is not based only on that one, it is because we are trying to expand the scope of the law. Any impeachment case that goes to court now, lawyers will cite Adeolu Adelek vs Inakoju on the impeachment case of Ladoja. If we didn’t go to court, it would not have helped other governors.
At that time, so many governors were lined up to be removed. Joshua Dariye (former governor of Plateau State) was removed by two or three people, Peter Obi (former governor of Anambra State) was removed, Ayodele Fayose (former governor and presently governor of Ekiti State) was removed forcefully and the process of impeachment did not even go through the normal process. That is why it was said there was no impeachment. So, Ladoja’s case has set the tone of how somebody can be impeached.
Talking about tenure, the case of Ladoja vs INEC, is on record. So, am I not contributing? So, it is not only for me, it is for Nigeria that you have to set out those things that are supposed to be correct. This is the situation. So, it is not a personal issue between me and my cousin, Isiaka (Abiola Ajimobi).
When you were in government, we learnt that the national leader of APC, Asiwaju Bola Tinubu, was said to have made some overtures to you to join his party, especially when you were impeached. Are you regretting not joining the party?
It’s not only when I was in government that the overture was made to me. As late as October last year, the overture was made to me. But I am not regretting that I did not join his party. We do what we think is right and that their party is not the one we should join.
Do you support removal of oil subsidy?
The problem of subsidy, as far as I am concerned should not be debated. I was a participant in the oil industry. The government wanted uniform pricing. The government was shy to increase prices when the price of oil was going up. So, it was a political decision. The siting of refineries are also political decision.
Before the Warri Refinery was built, the marketers wanted to build a refinery in Lagos. Most of times, the Federal Government acquire things which it does not have capacity to sustain. The government should have left the oil industry and just concerned themselves with collecting taxes. In other countries, the selling price of oil at times is less than 50 per cent of the price people pay at the pump. The others are taxes.
So, if the price of oil drops from $110 and $120 to $30 to $40 today, why should we be talking of subsidy? And if you don’t devalue your naira, may be N87 would be more than the price you should pay. It is not a subsidy but an opportunity cost. If I sold my oil at the international price, this is what I would have got.
One of the problems you run into when the commercial arm is also the regulating arm is the one we have in Nigeria. We have been talking about the problem for a long time that subsidy does not allow the industry to grow. If they said subsidy cost them N1trillion, what is our budget this year? It is N6.08trillion. If the N1trillion subsidy is removed, it means we are looking for N5trillion.
If you are lucky again to get N1trillion from MTN, then you are looking for N4trillion. So, I think we should not talk about subsidy again. We should just allow the oil to be free. Let the people who know about the business do it.
When pipelines were constructed in 1978, they tried to give it to the marketers to run, but the NNPC in their arrogance said no. They are going to run it themselves. I believe the government should look at the best price for oil, which cannot be up to N87 today. If the price of crude has fallen. Now they want to sell petrol at N85 per litre from January 1, 2016.
It has got an element of demurrage due to the inefficiency of the importers, which has to be NNPC. There is element of taxation and the pipeline issues. They are so many things there, which are not operational. If you are efficient, you will not incur them.
Government should just withdraw gradually from the oil industry and allow the oil companies to do their exploration and government should determine the tax it wants to collect. Why can’t you leave it at N87 and start a tax regime that it is N87 but the government will take a certain percentage of it as tax. Instead of paying subsidy, you are now taking money back from the people. You can use that one to adjust. The prediction is that oil may become $20. The commodity should be made possible. The government should not be the seller and the same time tax collector.
With the state of the economy now, If you are a governor, would you review the minimum wage downwards and what measure will you put in place to reduce wastages in government?
The priorities of the governors are different. One of the wastages is sponsorship of religious faithful to perform their religious obligations. Nigeria is not one religion state. It is a multi-religion state. So, if I send Muslims to Mecca, I have to send Christians to Jerusalem. Then, where do I send the ‘Ifa’ worshippers? Where do I send the ‘Sango’ people? Of course, they are also natives of the state. We should define what government role is and what is personal role? That is part of underdevelopment. The government role should be general to everybody.
People thought that they have surplus money. This is why they believe you must just spend the money and that you should do so the way they want.
The minimum wage is N18,000. Assuming you have a wife and four children, how many people can live with N18,000 every month? So, instead of taking from the minimum wage, I think we should take from the higher purse. You should cut down from the higher wages. Where somebody is taking N18,000, some people are taking may be N300,000; N400,000; N500,000 and so on. I think that is where we should start so that the people below can live.
One of the problems the labour leaders have with me when I was the governor was that they said I was not allowing them to do their work. They said before they took one step, I was on the fourth step.
When they came to me, I told them that they have removed their children from private schools. You have brought them to our public school because the quality of our secondary school has surpassed that the private schools their children were attending. I told them that I knew they used to change the shock absorbers of their cars often, but they have not repaired their shock absorbers in one year because of the good roads we provided. Is that no more money in their pockets? They also enjoyed the tap water provided by the administration in their homes.
So, it is not only about salary, it is also what you can do with your money that is important. I don’t think the problem we have is that of minimum wage. It is that of how to distribute our resources.
There is no doubt about the fact that former President, Chief Olusegun Obasanjo, is one of the greatest leaders we have ever produced in Nigeria. when you look at it, people forget that it is true that some people are born great, some people acquire greatness, some have greatness thrust on them. So, which one would you say Obasanjo falls into?
I think it was forced upon him. God doesn’t make mistakes. Look at how many people have sought to become the President of Nigeria among the Yorubas. Our revered Baba, Chief Obafemi Awolowo, tried, he did not get it. Chief MKO Abiola nearly got it. But Obasanjo became Head of State reluctantly in 1976. Chief Olu Falae equally tried.
But Obasanjo cannot be said to be the most righteous person. In fact, they told him before (he became president) that he could not become a deacon in the Baptist Church because of many vices he was said to have perpetrated. Yet, God said this is the person that is going to be your leader.
So, whether we like it or not – luckily Yoruba respect two things, age and position. So far in Nigeria, nobody has attained the height of ruling Nigeria for almost 12 years like Obasanjo. There must be something good in him.
Since he became Head of State in 1976, he has always has a hand in who becomes the president of Nigeria. It was said he has a hand in how Alhaji Shehu Shagari became the president of Nigeria in 1979. After Shagari, the next one we had was when he became president in 1999.
Look at this paradox, Obasanjo became president 20 years after he was said to have had a hand in how Shagari became president. He also has hand in how the late Alhaji Umar Yar’Adua became president in 2007. He also has hand in how Goodluck Jonathan became president and he has hand in how Muhammadu Buhari became president.
Tell me if there is any Nigerian that can be said to be greater than that. Obasanjo’s voice in Africa today is about number one. When he talks, everybody knows that Obasanjo has talked. We should not minimise the fact that God decides what he wants to do. I am not a pastor, but I believe that God has a hand in everything is happening in Nigeria, and even everything that is happening in the world.
If he calls the United States President, Barack Obama, he doesn’t need to say who is Obasanjo? The world leaders know him. The Secretary General of United Nations, Ban ki Moon, knows him. He may not be the most righteous but he has been the one that has been so favoured. Buhari became President, essentially because of the vote of the North. Obasanjo became president, not because of the votes of the West, it was note the vote of his own people.
So, me and my brothers (Obasanjo) are not good friends o. We cannot sit down together for one hour without fighting. But it cannot be denied that so far he is the biggest Nigerian and as today, the greatest African after Nelson Mandela, who is no more. Whether the Yoruba accepts him as leader or not, huh? Recently, he told me that he is not the leader of the Yorubas, but of Nigeria.
But many people still believe that Obasanjo has caused many problems for Nigeria instead of solving the problems of the country. What is your take on this?
I am not saying he has not caused problems for the country, but so far living Nigerian has matched his records, whether it was bestowed on him or he earned it.
If after you have come back from the Supreme Court, do you intend to contest for the governorship seat again?
It is not for me to decide whether I will contest again or not. The decision lies with my party. If the party says I should contest because there is no other person that can contest again, they cannot force me. If I want to contest, and the party says I should not, I cannot force them either.
The ruling APC in the state has said, you would lose your petition up to the Supreme Court level and thereafter, you would be sent to political oblivion. What is your reaction to this sir?
You don’t go to war and say you want to lose the war; you go to war with determination to win. Playing to the gallery is also part of it. You are fighting your opponent, either your opponent refused to be threatened or not. You just ignore whatever they say because there is no truth in it.
Am I in oblivion yet? No, I am not. Or is it the association of Alao-Akala and Ajimobi that will send me to oblivion? No, it cannot. Even the party that many people think it’s unbeatable, the PDP, which said it would rule Nigeria for 60 years, it actually ruled for 16 years, instead of 60 years. Therefore, you cannot say au revoir yet. It is too early to say they would send me to political oblivion.
Definitely, at a certain time, I will have to retire from active politics when I become Olubadan of Ibadanland. When I become Olubadan of Ibadan, at that time, can I still play active politics? But today I am not yet Olubadan, and it is not sure that I will become Olubadan. I only pray that I will become Olubadan. How many people that start the journey eventually become Olubadan? May be I should become emeritus politician to train new comers.
There is an insinuation that you knew you would not win your petition against Governor Ajimobi before the tribunal, the Court of Appeal, and the Supreme Court, you only filed the petition to retain your followership. How true is this sir?
It is not true. I don’t believe in throwing away good money. If I knew I would not win, I would not have put in one kobo. We put in a lot effort and money. Election petition is different from other issues because when lawyers are doing it, they cannot do any other thing.
Collecting evidence is not a joke; it takes efforts and money. Maybe that is what they tell their own supporters.
Do you see jubilation in town on the day the Appeal Court delivered judgment? It means the people are still saying ‘we did not vote for you.’ I gave myself 99 per cent of winning at the tribunal and the Court of Appeal.
You and Governor Abiola Ajimobi are cousins, but politics seems to have made the two of you fallen apart…
(Cuts in) That is not true.
Do you still meet at family meetings or relate well?
We have not been having family meeting for a long time, why should we start one now? He is free to come to my house. I am the elder one, and he has always been the one coming after me. If he wants to come, he can still come. I will welcome him.
At the funeral programme for the late Otun Olubadan of Ibadanland, Chief Omowale Kuye, recently, Ajimobi said there is no problem between us and that is true. He said the supporters are the ones causing problems; that he is not the one and that is true. I have no problem with him.
But I said I won the election, it is my right to feel so. There is room for redress and I am seeking that redress. What is wrong in that one? Even, if we are blood brothers, there is nothing stopping anything. Most of the time, we are so emotional about things. It has nothing to do with our emotion.
If we are going to the Supreme Court, it is not based only on that one, it is because we are trying to expand the scope of the law. Any impeachment case that goes to court now, lawyers will cite Adeolu Adelek vs Inakoju on the impeachment case of Ladoja. If we didn’t go to court, it would not have helped other governors.
At that time, so many governors were lined up to be removed. Joshua Dariye (former governor of Plateau State) was removed by two or three people, Peter Obi (former governor of Anambra State) was removed, Ayodele Fayose (former governor and presently governor of Ekiti State) was removed forcefully and the process of impeachment did not even go through the normal process. That is why it was said there was no impeachment. So, Ladoja’s case has set the tone of how somebody can be impeached.
Talking about tenure, the case of Ladoja vs INEC, is on record. So, am I not contributing? So, it is not only for me, it is for Nigeria that you have to set out those things that are supposed to be correct. This is the situation. So, it is not a personal issue between me and my cousin, Isiaka (Abiola Ajimobi).
When you were in government, we learnt that the national leader of APC, Asiwaju Bola Tinubu, was said to have made some overtures to you to join his party, especially when you were impeached. Are you regretting not joining the party?
It’s not only when I was in government that the overture was made to me. As late as October last year, the overture was made to me. But I am not regretting that I did not join his party. We do what we think is right and that their party is not the one we should join.
Do you support removal of oil subsidy?
The problem of subsidy, as far as I am concerned should not be debated. I was a participant in the oil industry. The government wanted uniform pricing. The government was shy to increase prices when the price of oil was going up. So, it was a political decision. The siting of refineries are also political decision.
Before the Warri Refinery was built, the marketers wanted to build a refinery in Lagos. Most of times, the Federal Government acquire things which it does not have capacity to sustain. The government should have left the oil industry and just concerned themselves with collecting taxes. In other countries, the selling price of oil at times is less than 50 per cent of the price people pay at the pump. The others are taxes.
So, if the price of oil drops from $110 and $120 to $30 to $40 today, why should we be talking of subsidy? And if you don’t devalue your naira, may be N87 would be more than the price you should pay. It is not a subsidy but an opportunity cost. If I sold my oil at the international price, this is what I would have got.
One of the problems you run into when the commercial arm is also the regulating arm is the one we have in Nigeria. We have been talking about the problem for a long time that subsidy does not allow the industry to grow. If they said subsidy cost them N1trillion, what is our budget this year? It is N6.08trillion. If the N1trillion subsidy is removed, it means we are looking for N5trillion.
If you are lucky again to get N1trillion from MTN, then you are looking for N4trillion. So, I think we should not talk about subsidy again. We should just allow the oil to be free. Let the people who know about the business do it.
When pipelines were constructed in 1978, they tried to give it to the marketers to run, but the NNPC in their arrogance said no. They are going to run it themselves. I believe the government should look at the best price for oil, which cannot be up to N87 today. If the price of crude has fallen. Now they want to sell petrol at N85 per litre from January 1, 2016.
It has got an element of demurrage due to the inefficiency of the importers, which has to be NNPC. There is element of taxation and the pipeline issues. They are so many things there, which are not operational. If you are efficient, you will not incur them.
Government should just withdraw gradually from the oil industry and allow the oil companies to do their exploration and government should determine the tax it wants to collect. Why can’t you leave it at N87 and start a tax regime that it is N87 but the government will take a certain percentage of it as tax. Instead of paying subsidy, you are now taking money back from the people. You can use that one to adjust. The prediction is that oil may become $20. The commodity should be made possible. The government should not be the seller and the same time tax collector.
With the state of the economy now, If you are a governor, would you review the minimum wage downwards and what measure will you put in place to reduce wastages in government?
The priorities of the governors are different. One of the wastages is sponsorship of religious faithful to perform their religious obligations. Nigeria is not one religion state. It is a multi-religion state. So, if I send Muslims to Mecca, I have to send Christians to Jerusalem. Then, where do I send the ‘Ifa’ worshippers? Where do I send the ‘Sango’ people? Of course, they are also natives of the state. We should define what government role is and what is personal role? That is part of underdevelopment. The government role should be general to everybody.
People thought that they have surplus money. This is why they believe you must just spend the money and that you should do so the way they want.
The minimum wage is N18,000. Assuming you have a wife and four children, how many people can live with N18,000 every month? So, instead of taking from the minimum wage, I think we should take from the higher purse. You should cut down from the higher wages. Where somebody is taking N18,000, some people are taking may be N300,000; N400,000; N500,000 and so on. I think that is where we should start so that the people below can live.
One of the problems the labour leaders have with me when I was the governor was that they said I was not allowing them to do their work. They said before they took one step, I was on the fourth step.
When they came to me, I told them that they have removed their children from private schools. You have brought them to our public school because the quality of our secondary school has surpassed that the private schools their children were attending. I told them that I knew they used to change the shock absorbers of their cars often, but they have not repaired their shock absorbers in one year because of the good roads we provided. Is that no more money in their pockets? They also enjoyed the tap water provided by the administration in their homes.
So, it is not only about salary, it is also what you can do with your money that is important. I don’t think the problem we have is that of minimum wage. It is that of how to distribute our resources.
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